Comments on: Evangelicals and Catholics Together? http://www.biblicalfoundations.org/blog/the-church/evangelicals-and-catholics-together ALERT: Dr. Köstenberger’s blogs are now becoming available in Spanish. We will continue to add new posts as soon as they can be translated. Click on “Espanol” above Thu, 25 Feb 2010 18:35:08 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Daviel D'Paz http://www.biblicalfoundations.org/blog/the-church/evangelicals-and-catholics-together/comment-page-1#comment-82323 Daviel D'Paz Fri, 13 Mar 2009 02:32:06 +0000 http://www.biblicalfoundations.org/?p=120#comment-82323 Sussie Wrote: "Sad indeed. I’m a convert to the Catholic faith, and can’t be more at peace in mind, body and soul. The safety of having an Apostolic authority, a place where the buck stops, is truly as Jesus intended and gave us starting with Peter [.....] Jim Jones is a perfect example of “Sola Scriptura” he read it, interpreted it, and voila, how many bloated bodies were fallen around his corpse in Guyana?" I don't doubt your sincerity, but How in the world you can have a peace of mind when the Catholic Church is also divided? I cannot see the adventage of renouncing to objectivity in favar of closing your mind and accept all the supposedly "infalible" teachings of the Catholic Church. The apostolic authority that you think you have in the RCC is just a BIG MYTH. There is no such a teaching in the Scriptures. What you are doing is just exactly what Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons do, when they PLACE their eternal destiny at the hands of the MAGISTERIUM'S interpretation. To me, that is the WORST kind of nonsense. And the accusation you make of the teaching of SOLA SCRIPTURA, is simply NOT TRUE. Jim Jones DID NOT DO what he did because he was teaching SOLA SCRIPTURA, but because he was deceived. Thatkind of argumentation is just one example of the worst BIAS against the teaching of SOLA SCRIPTURA. Thank you. Sussie Wrote:

“Sad indeed. I’m a convert to the Catholic faith, and can’t be more at peace in mind, body and soul. The safety of having an Apostolic authority, a place where the buck stops, is truly as Jesus intended and gave us starting with Peter [.....] Jim Jones is a perfect example of “Sola Scriptura” he read it, interpreted it, and voila, how many bloated bodies were fallen around his corpse in Guyana?”

I don’t doubt your sincerity, but How in the world you can have a peace of mind when the Catholic Church is also divided?

I cannot see the adventage of renouncing to objectivity in favar of closing your mind and accept all the supposedly “infalible” teachings of the Catholic Church.

The apostolic authority that you think you have in the RCC is just a BIG MYTH. There is no such a teaching in the Scriptures. What you are doing is just exactly what Jehovah’s Witnesses or Mormons do, when they PLACE their eternal destiny at the hands of the MAGISTERIUM’S interpretation. To me, that is the WORST kind of nonsense.

And the accusation you make of the teaching of SOLA SCRIPTURA, is simply NOT TRUE. Jim Jones DID NOT DO what he did because he was teaching SOLA SCRIPTURA, but because he was deceived.

Thatkind of argumentation is just one example of the worst BIAS against the teaching of SOLA SCRIPTURA.

Thank you.

]]> By: Lynne Ross http://www.biblicalfoundations.org/blog/the-church/evangelicals-and-catholics-together/comment-page-1#comment-81625 Lynne Ross Sun, 22 Feb 2009 23:03:33 +0000 http://www.biblicalfoundations.org/?p=120#comment-81625 I can see why everyone who differ on how may books there are. Let me put it this way. God had a plan that every book would some how conecide with another book. Something in the old Testament refers to Jesus in the New Testament. I think that God knew that these 66 books enough for us to handle. We need to quit worrying about how many and more about content. Reading and seeing what God is showing each of us. We need to get off the milk and start eating meat! The word of God. The more I read the more I learn about God and the plans he has for me. I am so exicited I can't wait to pick it up again and find out what new and exciting things God has in store for me. I can see why everyone who differ on how may books there are. Let me put it this way. God had a plan that every book would some how conecide with another book. Something in the old Testament refers to Jesus in the New Testament. I think that God knew that these 66 books enough for us to handle. We need to quit worrying about how many and more about content. Reading and seeing what God is showing each of us. We need to get off the milk and start eating meat! The word of God. The more I read the more I learn about God and the plans he has for me. I am so exicited I can’t wait to pick it up again and find out what new and exciting things God has in store for me.

]]> By: In the Blogosphere… « Kingdom People http://www.biblicalfoundations.org/blog/the-church/evangelicals-and-catholics-together/comment-page-1#comment-22324 In the Blogosphere… « Kingdom People Fri, 07 Sep 2007 19:21:18 +0000 http://www.biblicalfoundations.org/?p=120#comment-22324 [...] Gregg Allison, my Systematic Theology professor at Southern, writes about Beckwith’s return to Rome, and what this means for evangelicals who believe Scripture is our sole authority. [...] [...] Gregg Allison, my Systematic Theology professor at Southern, writes about Beckwith’s return to Rome, and what this means for evangelicals who believe Scripture is our sole authority. [...]

]]> By: Mark Hughes http://www.biblicalfoundations.org/blog/the-church/evangelicals-and-catholics-together/comment-page-1#comment-22030 Mark Hughes Thu, 30 Aug 2007 13:14:09 +0000 http://www.biblicalfoundations.org/?p=120#comment-22030 Reguarding my Scripture citations on 8/29/07 I was incorrect on two verses. Paul's oral preaching is not a human word, but the word of God is 1Thess. 2:13 NOT acts 2:13. Hold fast to the written and the oral should be 1 Cor. 11:2 and 2 Thess. 2:15 NOT 1Thess. 2:15. My apologies for citing the incorrect verses. Reguarding my Scripture citations on 8/29/07 I was incorrect on two verses.
Paul’s oral preaching is not a human word, but the word of God is 1Thess. 2:13 NOT acts 2:13.
Hold fast to the written and the oral should be 1 Cor. 11:2 and 2 Thess. 2:15 NOT 1Thess. 2:15.
My apologies for citing the incorrect verses.

]]> By: Mark Hughes http://www.biblicalfoundations.org/blog/the-church/evangelicals-and-catholics-together/comment-page-1#comment-22002 Mark Hughes Wed, 29 Aug 2007 19:21:38 +0000 http://www.biblicalfoundations.org/?p=120#comment-22002 I have enjoyed reading the comments posted. It seems to me that the larger question that never seems to be asked is "How does anyone know what the canon of Scripture is?" The Bible did not fall out of the sky. The table of contents are not inspired. The answer is, we know the canon of Scripture because of four Councils of the Roman Catholic Church. 1. Council of Rome 382 A.D. Determined the Old Testament canon: 73 books. These books contain the 66 that Evangelicals have in their Bibles and also the Deuterocanonicals, which Evangelicals call the Apocrypha. The Jews did not have a defined canon at the time of Jesus. There were several canons at that time such as the Palestinian, which contain the 66 books found in the Protestant Bible, and the Alexandrian that contain 73 books as found in Catholic Bibles. There are 350 Old Testament quotes in the New Testament. 300 of those quotes are from the Alexandrian canon, which contain the Deuterocanonicals, commonly footnoted as LXX (70 or Septuagant). 2. Councils of Hippo 393 and Carthage 397 & 419 finalized the New Testament. Reportedly, there were about 800 books claiming to be Scripture at that time. Martin Luther aknowleged this in his commentary on the Gospel of John. Paraphrasing, "We would know nothing of the Scriptures if it were not for the Catholic Church." The Septuagent was the accepted Old Testament for 1400 years until Luther through out the Deuterocanonicals. We believe the Catholic Church's desicion because of it's Divine Founder, Jesus the Christ. Mt. 16 "I will build MY CHURCH...on Peter (Rock) the gates of Hell will not prevail against it. Peter is given the "keys to the Kingdom of Heaven" and the divine authority to bind and loose in Jesus' name. See Isaiah 22:15-22. Paul tells Timothy that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. See 1Tim. 3:15 Pauls ORAL preaching is called "Not a human word, but the Word of God." See Acts 2:13 Paul tells and COMMANDS the Corinthians and the Thessolinians to "Hold fast to what is written (Scripture) AND to what is "Passed on by word of mouth (Tradition). See 1Cor. 11:2, 1Thes. 2:15. We only know what Scripture is because of the Church. The Church believes in th Word Incarnate, the Word Proclaimed and the Word Written. Thank you, Mark. I have enjoyed reading the comments posted. It seems to me that the larger question that never seems to be asked is “How does anyone know what the canon of Scripture is?” The Bible did not fall out of the sky. The table of contents are not inspired. The answer is, we know the canon of Scripture because of four Councils of the Roman Catholic Church.
1. Council of Rome 382 A.D. Determined the Old Testament canon: 73 books. These books contain the 66 that Evangelicals have in their Bibles and also the Deuterocanonicals, which Evangelicals call the Apocrypha. The Jews did not have a defined canon at the time of Jesus. There were several canons at that time such as the Palestinian, which contain the 66 books found in the Protestant Bible, and the Alexandrian that contain 73 books as found in Catholic Bibles.
There are 350 Old Testament quotes in the New Testament. 300 of those quotes are from the Alexandrian canon, which contain the Deuterocanonicals, commonly footnoted as LXX (70 or Septuagant).
2. Councils of Hippo 393 and Carthage 397 & 419 finalized the New Testament. Reportedly, there were about 800 books claiming to be Scripture at that time.
Martin Luther aknowleged this in his commentary on the Gospel of John. Paraphrasing, “We would know nothing of the Scriptures if it were not for the Catholic Church.”
The Septuagent was the accepted Old Testament for 1400 years until Luther through out the Deuterocanonicals.
We believe the Catholic Church’s desicion because of it’s Divine Founder, Jesus the Christ. Mt. 16 “I will build MY CHURCH…on Peter (Rock) the gates of Hell will not prevail against it. Peter is given the “keys to the Kingdom of Heaven” and the divine authority to bind and loose in Jesus’ name. See Isaiah 22:15-22.
Paul tells Timothy that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. See 1Tim. 3:15
Pauls ORAL preaching is called “Not a human word, but the Word of God.” See Acts 2:13
Paul tells and COMMANDS the Corinthians and the Thessolinians to “Hold fast to what is written (Scripture) AND to what is “Passed on by word of mouth (Tradition). See 1Cor. 11:2, 1Thes. 2:15.
We only know what Scripture is because of the Church. The Church believes in th Word Incarnate, the Word Proclaimed and the Word Written.
Thank you, Mark.

]]> By: Susie http://www.biblicalfoundations.org/blog/the-church/evangelicals-and-catholics-together/comment-page-1#comment-21008 Susie Mon, 06 Aug 2007 11:51:44 +0000 http://www.biblicalfoundations.org/?p=120#comment-21008 Andreas Kostenberger wrote above: "Assuming that “the Bible” spoken of in the ETS doctrinal base is the 66 books of the Protestant canon, would it not be true that the reference to “the Bible alone” would rule out Roman Catholics since they consider other books besides the 66 books (i.e. the Apocrypha) to be the Word of God written? I would greatly appreciate it if you could shed any further light on this." Yes, we [Catholics] do have 73 books in our bible. We have the 7 Luther "did away with." It's not good to add or subtract from the Word of God. (the scripture verse eludes me at the moment) When Luther did that, (he also didn't like James and a few other books, and wanted to scrap them, too) he did a very bad thing...look where it's taken Protestantism. With now over 30,000 denoms and nobody agreeing with each other on basic, albeit truly important tenets of the faith. Sad indeed. I'm a convert to the Catholic faith, and can't be more at peace in mind, body and soul. The safety of having an Apostolic authority, a place where the buck stops, is truly as Jesus intended and gave us starting with Peter. Jesus was/is a true Good Shepherd, so why on earth (no pun intended) would he leave the interpretation of scripture to every individual so that 2007 years later, there'd be even more hatred and division in Christendom and ever Joe Blow on the block with a bible with 66 books can start or plant a church and lead others astray by his own interpretation and opions? Jim Jones is a perfect example of "Sola Scriptura" he read it, interpreted it, and voila, how many bloated bodies were fallen around his corpse in Guyana? PAX, susie Andreas Kostenberger wrote above: “Assuming that “the Bible” spoken of in the ETS doctrinal base is the 66 books of the Protestant canon, would it not be true that the reference to “the Bible alone” would rule out Roman Catholics since they consider other books besides the 66 books (i.e. the Apocrypha) to be the Word of God written? I would greatly appreciate it if you could shed any further light on this.”

Yes, we [Catholics] do have 73 books in our bible. We have the 7 Luther “did away with.” It’s not good to add or subtract from the Word of God. (the scripture verse eludes me at the moment) When Luther did that, (he also didn’t like James and a few other books, and wanted to scrap them, too) he did a very bad thing…look where it’s taken Protestantism. With now over 30,000 denoms and nobody agreeing with each other on basic, albeit truly important tenets of the faith. Sad indeed. I’m a convert to the Catholic faith, and can’t be more at peace in mind, body and soul. The safety of having an Apostolic authority, a place where the buck stops, is truly as Jesus intended and gave us starting with Peter. Jesus was/is a true Good Shepherd, so why on earth (no pun intended) would he leave the interpretation of scripture to every individual so that 2007 years later, there’d be even more hatred and division in Christendom and ever Joe Blow on the block with a bible with 66 books can start or plant a church and lead others astray by his own interpretation and opions? Jim Jones is a perfect example of “Sola Scriptura” he read it, interpreted it, and voila, how many bloated bodies were fallen around his corpse in Guyana?

PAX,
susie

]]> By: johnMark http://www.biblicalfoundations.org/blog/the-church/evangelicals-and-catholics-together/comment-page-1#comment-15420 johnMark Thu, 17 May 2007 11:57:34 +0000 http://www.biblicalfoundations.org/?p=120#comment-15420 Wouldn't this situation be a place where Roman Catholics should need to get an official declaration from their church approving whether or not they can hold to the ETS statement of belief? As the Catholic argues it's all about authority and I am not aware of any Catholic apologists who have commented so far that have the authority to speak for their church. Thanks for the update, Mark Wouldn’t this situation be a place where Roman Catholics should need to get an official declaration from their church approving whether or not they can hold to the ETS statement of belief?

As the Catholic argues it’s all about authority and I am not aware of any Catholic apologists who have commented so far that have the authority to speak for their church.

Thanks for the update,
Mark

]]> By: Raymond Coffey http://www.biblicalfoundations.org/blog/the-church/evangelicals-and-catholics-together/comment-page-1#comment-15384 Raymond Coffey Wed, 16 May 2007 02:53:32 +0000 http://www.biblicalfoundations.org/?p=120#comment-15384 Thomas Aquinas' statement that the Word of God written or handed down is talking about the Bible is in error. That which is 'handed down' is not the Scripture in oral form prior to its being written, but to oral 'tradition' that has been passed down through the continuing apostolate and has found expression in extra-biblical teaching such as the Assumption of Mary, which did not make it into Scripture, or even official teaching within the RC until the 1950's. Thomas Aquinas’ statement that the Word of God written or handed down is talking about the Bible is in error. That which is ‘handed down’ is not the Scripture in oral form prior to its being written, but to oral ‘tradition’ that has been passed down through the continuing apostolate and has found expression in extra-biblical teaching such as the Assumption of Mary, which did not make it into Scripture, or even official teaching within the RC until the 1950’s.

]]> By: Can A Roman Catholic Sign the ETS Statement in Good Conscience? | currentchristian.com http://www.biblicalfoundations.org/blog/the-church/evangelicals-and-catholics-together/comment-page-1#comment-15382 Can A Roman Catholic Sign the ETS Statement in Good Conscience? | currentchristian.com Wed, 16 May 2007 02:31:28 +0000 http://www.biblicalfoundations.org/?p=120#comment-15382 [...] Andreas Kostenberger posts his query and an informed response by SBTS Professor Gregg Allison in “Evangelicals and Catholics Together?” [...] [...] Andreas Kostenberger posts his query and an informed response by SBTS Professor Gregg Allison in “Evangelicals and Catholics Together?” [...]

]]> By: Jim Hamilton http://www.biblicalfoundations.org/blog/the-church/evangelicals-and-catholics-together/comment-page-1#comment-15375 Jim Hamilton Tue, 15 May 2007 20:49:20 +0000 http://www.biblicalfoundations.org/?p=120#comment-15375 Thanks for this very helpful exchange! Jim Thanks for this very helpful exchange!

Jim

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